Friday, August 12, 2005





Spacecraft Begins 7-Month Journey to Mars

"A spacecraft loaded with high-tech cameras, antenna and radar began a seven-month voyage to Mars on Friday that aims to gather more data on the Red Planet than all previous explorations combined."
Posted by Mac at 3:08 PM

26 comments:

W.M. Bear said...

I dunno. Tell me I've got a hyperactive visual imagination if you want, but I've never seen an aerial photo of a natural tetrahedral mountain with three straight edges and flat sides on earth. If a satellite took a picture like that of, say, a previously unexamined region on Earth, archeologists would be all over that sucker!

9:05 PM
sauceruney said...

oh but mars is different... they have geological processes which sculpt features into the landscape which only appear to be created intelligently. On earth we call these processes "human intervention". There are no humans on mars, so this can't be the cause, so we default to nature!

*sarcasm mode off*

9:13 PM
stankan said...

It is funny. The people that want closeups of things like Banyan trees and pyramids are of course looneys. However, it is Ironic that the looneys are the ones that are saying "take the pictures" that would prove things one way or the other. The so called "rational scientists" hide behind "It is not worth our time.
Somehow I doubt that we will get any real good shots of the mysteries of Mars.

10:08 PM
W.M. Bear said...

The so called "rational scientists" hide behind "It is not worth our time.

stankan -- I think you just nailed it. "Rational scientists" are hiding behind rationalizations like this exactly because they're afraid of what they might discover if they stop hiding -- and rightly so, because it would put an end to what they think of as "rational science."

10:57 PM
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11:44 PM
Ken said...

Man, these blog spammers are as obvious as an FBI agent in a logging or fishing town! Mac ya gotta slap those guys around, somehow. Eee-lim-i-nate with Prejudice. Arr. ;-)

Well, anyway, no matter what, there will be superb resolution from this newest mission, and "they" don't seem to catch or hide everything, and one of these days, maybe even "they" and I will be convinced. BS does not always last forever, and I reckon that the realities of Mars will one day be too obvious to ignore, even for me. I should live so long.

12:29 AM
JEFM said...

I smoke, and I'm stupid.

I guess one thing goes with the other, hand by hand ...

:)

Jon

2:00 AM
W.M. Bear said...

How do they do that? They must have a hack that enables them to register automatically. What I ultimately want to do is spam the spammers. If they spam my blog (assuming I ever manage my personal "return to flight") I want to send millions of crap posts TO THE ORIGINATOR of the spam.

2:34 AM
sauceruney said...

stankan, you only have it half right

these things are labelled with names likening them to things on earth because these are the shapes we see, to label someone loony because they want closeups of these things in order to see what they are is like spewing derision toward people who wear thick corrective lenses and couldn't see without them.
People just want a clearer view, and most, save for an obvious few, would be happy to know what the hell these things really are.

I get so totally frustrated with people who are unable to make the logical distinction between curiosity and belief. Just because you filter out these things you deem as nonsense gives you no right to disparage the thinkers and dreamers. Even Carl Sagan made the "pyramid" comparison, and waxed poetic at the possibilities, even though deep down inside he probably felt they were just rocks.

Have you no hope? No passion? No heart?

I'd rather go through life thought of as a loon, than join in with the others participating in the rigidly controlled machine collective.

8:34 AM
Mac said...

If a satellite took a picture like that of, say, a previously unexamined region on Earth, archeologists would be all over that sucker!

Not if the archaeologists were JPL.

3:34 PM
W.M. Bear said...

I seriously doubt whether JPL even has any archeologists and I question whether at this point they even have any biologists, at least on active duty.

Even Carl Sagan made the "pyramid" comparison, and waxed poetic at the possibilities, even though deep down inside he probably felt they were just rocks.

I've read the passage where Sagan talks about this. But every time I see a picture of one of these "tetrahedral mountains" (and there seem to be a fair number of them scattered across the surface of Mars) I think: OK, then freaking tell me what kind of geological process is going to create something like that. But please don't start about the wind sculpting them in that shape or some such geological bullshit. The one "natural" explanation I've been able to come up with is that they are the protruding corners of much larger stone blocks the greatest portion of which are buried. When under great tectonic stress, rock does tend to shear along straight lines and flat planes. So, JPL, hire me to do your Mars debunking!

4:36 PM
Ken Younos said...

"Have you no hope? No passion? No heart?

I'd rather go through life thought of as a loon, than join in with the others participating in the rigidly controlled machine collective."

From the start, human beings were doomed to someday become pampered lumps of flesh which know only appetite. All things considered, this was the inevitable terminus of our species. I'm afraid the machine collective was an indirect product of this historical process, and its technocratic tyrrany is here to stay.

The human inclination toward gratification and repose is so strong, it was inevitable that all our purposes should ultimately begin gravitating in the direction of mass consumption.

A subtle shift in the cultural paradigm of Europe made universal literacy and therefore universal education, too, possible. It's easy for rulers to keep ignorant serfs in subjection, but the liberated mind will not be ruled -- hence the emergence of liberal democracy. With a democratic society comes the notion of "rights" -- that is, a sphere of freedoms granted to every private citizen by law, allowing each to pursue what makes them happy. The people elect officials who then enact policies for the general interest. Maybe you can already see how things should insipidly begin their subtle gravitation toward full bellies and fat tummies (both literally and metaphorically speaking).

Hence we have the evolution of the modern day consumer. Hand-in-hand with the consumer evolves a similar sort of creature - namely, the entrepeneur. For this animal making money is an addiction, a game and a diversion. Together the consumer and the entrepeneur create the social infrastructure of supply and demand. What is the most efficient way to make this infrastructure work? Answer: increased organization, integration, bureacratization -- in short, a machine collective.

As our world shrinks into a global community, this machine collective will increasingly pervade all societies, and at all levels of each society. Eventually, everyone will be educated, everyone will be a democrat, and everyone will be a consumer.

Kierkegaard once wrote, "Spirit is dreaming in man." It is the human capacity to dream -- that is, the depth, profundity and complexity of our inner world -- which has been at the root of all great human endeavors, achievements and our atrocities too. The question then becomes: Is it possible for the human spirit to be reduced?

For all practical purposes, resignation is the safest, easiest way to secure a livelihood in today's world. One resigns himself to existence as a bureacrat, just a mere cog and function in the works. Our technocrat finds that he is confronted with little choice but to suppress spirit in favor of pragmatism. But what is willfully suppressed over time is also lost.

It's my belief that at least some things are self-evident by nature. A sense for such axiomatic truths must be developed (a person must be able to perceive the Tao, as Lao Tzu would have said). One such truth is that individuals with a greater capacity to dream constitute a higher type of human being. It is precisely in such persons that we find the greatest potentials for this creature called "homo sapien".

At this point I'm going to bring in the implications of atheism: If there is no God, then there is no Providence, no divine sovereignity over the course of events. Such an arbitrary train of events make everything purposeless and nonsensical; existence as such is rendered absurd. Part and parcel to this absurdity is that chance should ultimately cause the functionally dead bureacrat to triumph at the expense of the Renaissance man. Our species was brought forth in absurdity, in which we also live, move and have our being.

(One can also speculate this absurdity with regard to the Martian demise. The possible existence of a very vast, very ancient civilization on Mars -- all of it obliderated in a single moment through nonsensical impact with an asteroid -- which, incidentally, maybe our fate too.)

Have a great weekend. ;)

5:45 PM
Ken Younos said...

"The one "natural" explanation I've been able to come up with is that they are the protruding corners of much larger stone blocks the greatest portion of which are buried. When under great tectonic stress, rock does tend to shear along straight lines and flat planes."

I don't know about the other tetrahedral mountains, but the D&M; Pyramid (for instance) also happens to be absolutely symmetrical in shape. Moreover, one corner is pointed directly at the Face, another pointed directly at the center of the "City Square" and still another directly at the Tholus. The City Pyramid, in close proximity to the D&M; Pyramid, also has five sides. If we look closely, we find a further curiosity: a small four-sided pyramid perched atop the City Pyramid.

Both the Parallelogram and the Square, which I mentioned previously, are also within the same vicinity.

All of this taken together (rather than each in isolation) does, IMO, suggest a rather strong case for artificiality.

6:07 PM
W.M. Bear said...

ken y -- Thanks for the dose of absurdist philosophy. It made my day so much more cheerful! ;-)

The possible existence of a very vast, very ancient civilization on Mars -- all of it obliderated in a single moment through nonsensical impact with an asteroid -- which, incidentally, maybe our fate too.

Actually, the current thinking (ala Hoagland, as well as more rigorous researchers in this area) seems to be along the lines of what's called the Exploded Planet Hypothesis (EPH). According to my understanding of the EPH, Mars was originally a satellite of a much larger planet that exploded several million years ago. This accounts for a number of observed features on Mars, including the pole shift. The ancient Martians themselves may or may not have survived this cataclysm (by space migration -- possibly to Earth -- etc.) but, in any case, it was what rendered Mars uninhabitable for macroorganisms and, in the process, created the asteroid belt. (One problem with the EPH, though, is that the total mass of all the asteroids doesn't even equal that of the Moon let alone a much larger planet.)

7:06 PM
W.M. Bear said...

To say nothing of the algae-carpet-like bluegreen stuff filling the bed of the runoff channel next to the tetrahedron. I mean, come on, guys! (Spectrogram showed it was nonliving?)

7:16 PM
Ken said...

Speaking of pyramidal formations only, both

http://thedesertspeaks.org/images/journal/2003/dunes-star.jpg

and

http://www.geo.utexas.edu/courses/371c/project/2002/Beveridge/PaleowindsGIS_files/image002.jpg

image star dunes of a pyramidal shape, both from NE Mexico. There are others on the Web. Search star dune image. Surprisingly enough, Aeolian erosion CAN make pyramids. BUT there are a number of other processes, including but not limited to,protruding geological blocks and sentient construction, which are also valid and viable possibilities.

Also, http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Sand_dune states "Radially symmetrical, star dunes are pyramidal sand mounds with slipfaces on three or more arms that radiate from the high center of the mound. They tend to accumulate in areas with multidirectional wind regimes. Star dunes grow upward rather than laterally. They dominate the Grand Erg Oriental of the Sahara. In other deserts, they occur around the margins of the sand seas, particularly near topographic barriers. In the southeast Badain Jaran Desert of China, the star dunes are up to 500 meters tall and may be the tallest dunes on Earth." Wind CAN do this. Considering the lesser gravity of Mars, pyramidal dunes far taller than 1,500 feet can be envisaged. Should they become cemented (fossilized), such could easily last for many thousands of years. Subsequent Aeolian erosian of such fossil dunes might well produce intriguing forms.

Having for near on ten years looked at "stuff" concerning Mars, I feel there are very good arguments for actual constructions, water and life. And, as well, for "natural" explanations. Likely, as in so many things, the reality is a mix.

To my mind, the jury is still out, though I lean towards construction, water and life. However, I WANT these things to be true, and consequently am quite stringent with my beliefs concerning water, etc.. There is no-one easier to fool than oneself, and I'm rather tired of doing that.

This is going to take boots on the ground to finalize, IMO. And, no matter what some may say, I feel JPL/NASA/Pentagon are quietly censoring our imagery of Mars, by misdirection at least, or perhaps much more. Paranoia? Yeah, maybe. Maybe not.

Concerning above statements by other posters on other facets of these subjects, I must say I like the company I'm keeping of late. Thanks for allowing me here, Mac.

Would someone tell me how to post direct links here? I know it can be done. Keep it simple.

:-)

7:42 PM
Mac said...

Ken--

To my mind, the jury is still out, though I lean towards construction, water and life.

Well, the jury is decidedly *in* re. water: It's there! And I'm convinced that the "seep" phenomenon is liquid water in action, albeit mostly underground.

Relatively simple extant life? The odds are increasingly good.

Past intelligence? Why not?

Nice having you here, Ken. Having some bright "regulars" makes this more fun.

8:38 PM
Mac said...

(One problem with the EPH, though, is that the total mass of all the asteroids doesn't even equal that of the Moon let alone a much larger planet.)

Tom Van Flandern thinks the Oort Cloud is also exploded planet debris. And interestingly enough, the Deep Impact probe seems to be indicating that the conventional "dirty snowball" model might not be the complete story.

Incidentally, I got raked by a local alternative newspaper for daring to mention Van Flandern in my book. You should be able to find the amiable -- if kind of silly -- article by Googling "Tonnies Space Case Pitch."

8:44 PM
Ken Younos said...

Here is a site where someone makes an argument for artificiality (in Cydonia) from geometry. I'm not a mathematician so I can't say to what degree the info here is legit, but it's probably worth looking at:

http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/cyd/city.shtml

9:23 PM
W.M. Bear said...

Mac -- I gave the Van Flandern article a close reading and saw two immediate difficulties with the EHP. One major problem (to my mind, anyway) is why Mars' original primary -- apparently about a dozen or so Earth-masses -- exploded in the first place. I know vF posits possible gravitational and nuclear mechanisms but there really aren't any observed instances (or other evidence) of planets just exploding. (Interesting, also, that some proponents of the EPH are called the planet "Krypton"!) As to the "missing mass" -- well, it's hard for me (no expert in the area, admittedly) to see how the great majority of the exploded material could move all the way from the area of the asteroid belt out beyond Neptune. I suppose it conceivably could, given the momentum imparted by the explosion. It would be interesting to run a computer simulation of this and see. I wonder if anyone has?

2:10 AM
W.M. Bear said...

Also, http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Sand_dune states "Radially symmetrical, star dunes are pyramidal sand mounds with slipfaces on three or more arms that radiate from the high center of the mound. They tend to accumulate in areas with multidirectional wind regimes. Star dunes grow upward rather than laterally. They dominate the Grand Erg Oriental of the Sahara.

I'd have to see pictures and compare.

2:27 AM
sauceruney said...

beautiful, ken... simply beautiful (and sad)

8:56 AM
Ken Younos said...

"beautiful, ken... simply beautiful (and sad)"

In comparison to the age of the Earth, we've only been around for the span of an eye blink. Moreover, our world is merely an infinitismal ripple in space-time. In such a vast universe with countless combinations of possibilities, I'm sure there have been (and will continue to be) countless worlds with much happier scenarios. ;)

1:04 PM
Kyle said...

Mac - All I can say is "It's about freaking time".

Godspeed MRO,

Kyle
UFOreflections.blogspot.com

5:05 AM
W.M. Bear said...

But it looks too "solid" and not in the middle of a sandy desert stretch of landscape to be a dune. The location just isn't right and there aren't another similar formations around. (Typically, dunes occur in large patches with many dunes, don't they?)

9:24 PM